Climate Change in the Backcountry with Dave Herring – POWcast Episode 6

James Worsfold: [00:00:00] This podcast was recorded on the lands of the Ngarigo people in Jindabyne, and the Wurundjeri people in Melbourne. Welcome to the POWcast, a podcast from Protect Our Winters Australia, where we chat about our love of the mountains and our shared journey to protect them. I’m James Worsfold, and I’m joined here today by POW Director Alastair McLeod.

Now, Al, who do we have on this episode of the POWcast?

Alastair McLeod: So I caught up with local legend of the snowy mountains, Dave Herring in Jindabyne when I was there in September. He doesn’t need a lot of introduction. A lot of people will know who he is, but he’s been running Alpine Access for years, which is one of Australia’s leading educational providers when it comes to avalanche and backcountry safety.

Great. Let’s get into it.

Dave Herring: Hi, I’m Dave Herring from Alpine Access. Uh, my wife, Peter, and I. We have been running this business since, I think, 2012. [00:01:00] And, uh, we’re both, uh, lifetime skiers and, uh, mountain people, uh, and surfers, but we spend as much time as we can in the mountains. Um, we both, uh, worked overseas, uh, when we left school in, in North America, mainly.

And, um, uh, have been, uh, uh, We’ve been touring around the world as much as we can for our whole time together, which is over 30 years now. Um, there’s no comparison to, uh, having a partner who, uh, is into the same game as you are and, and shares the same, uh, love of the mountains. So, I’m pretty lucky like that.

I was a tradie most of my life, but, um, as I got restless and wanted to come back to the mountains full time, I Joined, uh, Volley Ski Patrol for about 12 years and then was touring all the time [00:02:00] and just eventually moved over full time into the back country and, um, didn’t expect it to evolve into a business, but it has.

Uh, we started taking people out, uh, just touring and showing them how to, how to get about it. Uh, eventually went to Canada and got trained up with Avalanche, uh, the Canadian Avalanche Association, and we’re now providers for Avalanche Canada in Australia.

Alastair McLeod: How long actually have you been skiing for?

Dave Herring: So I learned to ski at Kyandra.

Um, I’m showing my age here, but, uh, probably late 60s, early 70s from memory. Uh, we used to drive up, I grew up on the north end of the main range and, um, we used to drive up, uh, Tabingo mountain. In convoys of cars, it was a dirt road and we’d push each other around the muddy corners and get up, uh, up high enough to ski.

Um, I think my parents skied on what’s known [00:03:00] as Bullock’s Hill, where they’d, uh, run down on old wooden skis and Kandahar bindings and get picked up by a car at the bottom and then drive back up. But that didn’t even hold snow, I think, in, in my day. Um, it was a rope tow. Uh, started by a European guy at Kiandra, across the road from the old hotel, and it was taken over by the Myers family from Tumut, who were neighbours of ours, and so we all used to, uh, go up and, uh, camp in the, on the floor in the, which it was then a pub, um, it became the DMR building, which was, In those days, the Department of Main Roads, and they let us sleep on the floor in there and we’d just, uh, ski up and down the rope tow in, um, in all sorts of conditions and all sorts of equipment.

Alastair McLeod: Kiandra actually is the birthplace of skiing in this country and it seems like [00:04:00] Europeans brought it over 150 years ago. What was it like learning to ski in a place like that and then seeing the transition shift further south towards the Jindabyne area and how that’s evolved in your skiing career?

Dave Herring: Kiandra doesn’t hold snow anymore, which is really sad, um, and as that evolved, uh, the Meyer family moved over and started Mount Selwyn, which is now struggling itself. Um, uh, but, uh, the resorts up here were already operational in those days. And so we came up to Perisher quite regularly, but the first skiers, yeah, were absolutely European, um, Northern European.

immigrants out here. Um, I think, you know, the first, uh, recorded stuff about the main range and Kosciuszko was, you know, in the 1840s. [00:05:00] Um, and then, you know, progressively people moved into the area and there was a lot of skiing done on the range. before the resorts were established. So, you know, the back country has a very long history in, you know, in New South Wales.

So originally the Europeans were tramping around out there. Um, and then, you know, there was permanent snow on the range up until the earlier 20th century. Um, and that’s recorded in a lot of, Books, including, uh, uh, Elaine Mitchell’s books, uh, The Australian Alps, which is just, if no one’s read it, it’s a, it should, it’s a great read, covering the history, um, and her and her husband, uh, Tom Mitchell, from Tawong Hill Station down on the other side of Kangoban, um, really set a standard by, uh, Uh, right, coming on horseback over the [00:06:00] Greymare Range up onto Pretty Plain and, uh, skiing a lot of the first descents on the Western Faces and, you know, crawling all over the main range in the, um, in the 1930s, um, and, uh, she named, uh, the Sentinel.

Uh, they named, uh, Little Austria. And, uh, we’re, you know, like I said, did all the first descents and were incredible on their, um, wooden skis and also Kandahar bindings, I guess. And, you know, you imagine their clothing, um, pretty crazy, but she’s such a great writer. People might remember her from her series, uh, The Silver Brumby Books and it became a, a film.

Um, but, uh, you know, she, she’s, uh, her, her writing is amazing and, um, you know, her legacy is incredible. She went on to, she wasn’t a ski when she met Tom Mitchell, uh, and went on [00:07:00] to, uh, be the Australian downhill Champion and went over to Canada and became the Canadian Downhill Champion. Um. And, uh, her gear is still on, uh, display in the little museum in Corryong, which is always worth a visit.

The other, uh, great story that came from her and her friends, including a guy called George Day, they drove two Willys Jeeps from Corryong to Charlotte’s Pass in 1948, I believe, in the 40s anyway. Uh, no roads. Straight up, uh, over the Greymere Range and, um, onto Long Plain again and, um, cross past Mount Tate, Constance Stephen Pass, Mount Tate, uh, Twynham and down to Charlottes Pass, just dragging and pushing and cutting logs out of the way, I guess, but an incredible journey in itself.

Alastair McLeod: Yeah, it’s pretty amazing to think that almost a hundred years [00:08:00] ago now, there was There’s this woman out there with horrible skis by modern standards and no Gore Tex and you know, no synthetic insulation and you know, to be out there tackling some of the steepest terrain in the whole country is, is kind of wild.

I guess that’s a very Australian thing, you know, like chasing adventure and going exploring. Uh, how would you say? you know, that culture has maybe had a bit of a rebirth with like interest in the backcountry uh, growing in the last five or so years?

Dave Herring: Yeah, it’s, it’s interesting because um, yeah, I’ve been around a while I guess and, you know, there’s such a new push, uh, into the backcountry now for lots of reasons.

Um, but uh, so I sometimes feel like uh, the, the, uh, People think that they’re starting something new and everyone’s got to realize how long this has been going on in this country and [00:09:00] what the heritage is and what people like Elaine and Tom Mitchell and George Day actually achieved with the gear they had.

Um, you know, they talk about pulling up, you Next to a creek and cooking a chop, you know, it’s just classic really and, uh, so look, it’s all about the adventure in the mountains and, uh, you know, the Australian spirit of getting out there and having a go. And, um, you know, we’re still doing it. It’s still great to see.

It’s, uh, it’s incredible to see the, uh, the change and the number of people getting out there now. And I guess our business is, uh, uh, you know, shows that by, you know, You know how popular it is for people to get educated now and, and uh, get out there and do it safely

Alastair McLeod: for the general skiing and snowboarding population of this country.

Do you think they actually have a real understanding of the history that has occurred in these places?

Dave Herring: There there’s a lot of, uh, you know, a lot of skiers just come up and go resort, you know, and they’re, they’re not interested. They dunno about that stuff. And, you know, they’re, they’re, um, they’re happy [00:10:00] if they turn up and there’s a whole lot of manmade snow.

They dunno the difference about what it was like. You know, what it’s actually like out on the main range, for instance, because they’re skiing in a different environment. But, um, you know, I think there’s a really strong, uh, ethic amongst people to find out more, and, you know, there’s books like, you know, Skiing the Western Faces, which we all have, and, um, you know, crawl over every time we go out there for the knowledge and the lines to ski, and now, um Yeah, I’d like to think that heritage will stay on.

I’d like to see more emphasis on it, maybe in some of the, um, filmmaking that’s been done and, and the focus maybe on, on that rather than just, uh, you know, all the, all the new stuff.

Alastair McLeod: So what would be the top resources for someone who wants to learn about the history of skiing these places in Australia?

Dave Herring: The obvious one [00:11:00] is, uh, skiing the Western Faces. By Alan Andrews, which we all look at, and it’s a bit of a bible, but um, uh, Elaine Mitchell’s books, um, The Australian Alps and Discoveries of the Snowy Mountains are two really incredible documents of, you know, recording the early history, um, before the resorts were here.

Um, Klaus Heinicke’s got really good books about all the huts and he’s still around and I still follow him on Facebook. He’s a bit of a legend. Uh, getting into the National Parks archives and, you know, into their bookshop and, you buying that sort of stuff and I guess there’s plenty of books on the histories of the Australian Alps.

James Worsfold: Al, I’ve got to admit I’m pretty ignorant to Australia’s skiing history and it’s so interesting to hear these stories of Australia’s first [00:12:00] backcountry skiers. Something Dave said that really hit home to me was that where he learned to ski, Kiandra, doesn’t really get snow anymore. Uh, Bullocks Hill, where Dave’s parents used to ski, didn’t hold snow by the time he started skiing, and there was persistent snow year round in the main range until the 20th century.

Like, places like Mount Buffalo, the first resort I went to as a kid, which used to have ski lifts, is going down this same path. I think all this stuff is a very sobering reminder of how climate change has been impacting our mountains for a long time. And modeling tells us we’re continuing on this trajectory.

Alastair McLeod: Yeah. So this year POW commissioned a report called our changing snowscapes, uh, with ANU and the Australian mountain research facility. If you want to learn more about the report, please check out episode five of the POW cast with its lead author, Ruby Olson. It looks at how climate change will affect the Australian Alps in relation to areas such as the economy, the environment, regional communities, hydroelectricity, the Murray Darling basin, [00:13:00] and first nations.

The report found that if the current trajectory of climate change continues, our ski season length will be cut in half by 2050. The good news is that we don’t have to go down this path. In a low emission scenario where we dramatically reduce our greenhouse gas emissions, Australia has the best chance of saving our snow and our mountains.

To read the full report, Our Changing Snowscapes, head to protectourwinters. org. au.

So, Dave, the backcountry community has been growing. Uh, obviously, you know, you’re saying the way that’s taken off with your business. What do you think is driving the interest in people heading out into the back country that we’ve seen, especially the last five years? Um, I know it kicked off through COVID, uh, or maybe slightly before, but we’ve really seen it take off.

Um, what would you say are the main driving factors in that?

Dave Herring: Yeah. Look, COVID obviously had a massive [00:14:00] impact, um, but it was going on before COVID. There was a real push prior, you know, when we started out, uh, we thought Putting 20 or 30 people a year through an AST1 course was fantastic and, you know, now we’re doing hundreds and, uh, it just keeps coming and we’re surprised how big the pool is.

But, uh, you know, all those people turned up with, uh, high gear and now they all turn up with their own gear. And that’s probably since COVID, you know, I know you couldn’t buy a lot of stuff during COVID, it just, everything sold out. But, uh, you know, I guess, uh, social media, uh, put in there as well as a really big impact on, um, people wanting to get out there, just seeing what other people are doing and how cool it is, I guess.

Um, the cost of resort skiing, it’s got to have something to do with it. Um, and, you know, in preparation for going overseas and going out the gates in Japan or skiing off piste in Europe or North America. Uh, yeah, it’s [00:15:00] a, it’s a, nursery here in Australia. It’s a great ground for people to get really good school set.

And, you know, we’ve always said if you can screw all the conditions that the Australian back country throw at you, you’re going to go pretty well overseas as well. So one of the things I, I would, Um, suggest there’s an impact on us from the changing climate is, you know, running a business in the mountains is difficult at the best of times, but meeting a client’s expectations can be a real challenge when the conditions are so variable and, uh, the, the snow is changing.

Um, the levels are changing. Um, I, I think, uh, people’s mindsets. change really quickly when, as soon as there’s any, it warms up and maybe they start thinking about the beach rather than going to the mountains. Um, I guess the other thing that changes for us is that our hazards and risks [00:16:00] change with, You know, with the climate changing and, you know, in my time, we’re used to having 10, 20 centimetres of snow on a regular basis through the season.

Whereas now we’re getting big storms that can drop 60, 70 centimetres of snow at a time. And when you’ve got wind and loading on these slopes, all of a sudden there’s a bigger problem for us and our assessment of that and where we can take our clients. And, um, you know, we’ve had a client set off, uh, And Avi, uh, three days after doing an AST 1 course with us, um, when we had nearly a metre of snow, the storm came in cold, landed on ice, uh, didn’t bond, and he went out to Etheridge and set off the biggest slide I’ve ever seen in Australia.

And um, so that, that to me is climate change, um, that is what we’re dealing with. Not saying it can’t happen at any other stage. I get [00:17:00] that, but, uh, this, these big storms we get now certainly changed things for us.

Alastair McLeod: You know, we’ve had bad seasons like this before, um, it happens and that’s true. Australia has one of the most variable snow packs in the world.

So one of the things that POW runs up against pretty often is people saying something like, we’ll have good years, we’ll have bad years, you know, this is the way it’s always been. What do you say to that sort of attitude? Oh,

Dave Herring: uh, you can’t deny that, uh, the climate is cyclic. But, you know, the, the reality is that, uh, with time we’re losing, uh, snow and the, uh, the snow levels are rising and, um, we are going through massive change.

I, I already said, you know, in the, um, Early part of the 20th century there was still permanent snow on the main range. It’s undeniable [00:18:00] that you know our impact, our lifestyles and everything else is contributing to the changes that we’re seeing now. One of the fascinating things for me is that in the reality of the ski industry is that it is so unsustainable.

We drive our cars everywhere. We buy expensive equipment. We throw it in the bin every two years. You know, there’s a lot of things about this industry that just don’t make sense for the long term. And I know that’s, um, that’s, uh, I’ll, I’ll get shot down for that, but, um, you know, I like to say it as it is.

Alastair McLeod: The snow sports community, um, as a whole, Australia punches well above its weight in terms of, uh, our lifestyles impact on the environment, especially when you factor in the amount of climate change that we export around the world with our coal and gas. Um, you know, we [00:19:00] make up a tiny percentage of the world’s population, but when you look at it, our carbon footprint is tiny.

Astronomical. At a community level, what do you think, you know, these, these regional towns, these mountain communities can do, uh, to fight against this problem?

Dave Herring: Yeah, I guess it was good to see the, uh, the buses start up. That’s probably the first initiative I’ve ever seen, really, from community here, which is really cool.

Uh, that’s in New South Wales out of Jindabyne, the buses that run up to Threbo and Perisher, uh, regularly during each day.

Alastair McLeod: So one of the things POW has looked at is, Transport emissions. So hundreds of thousands of cars drive into the skate resorts across this country every year. And the emissions from those cars actually dwarf the emissions from actually operating the resorts themselves.

Uh, one of the things POW’s done is we’ve built this carpooling tool, which, you know, the goal of [00:20:00] that is to try and get the community to start sharing rides and reduce cars basically heading up to the hill. Um, A lot of the time, you know, you might go on a trip with your friend, but you both end up driving in your own cars for some reason.

Um, so that’s, that’s a low hanging fruit thing that people can really do that has a meaningful impact. And then, uh, yeah, the public transport, like you talked about as well as fantastic. Um, in Victoria, we’ve partnered with Falls Creek coach services, and, you know, we want to try and help push people towards those sorts of services where we can.

James Worsfold: As Dave said. The ski industry isn’t all that environmentally sustainable, which seems to be at odds with the fragility of our alpine environment. With protecting the mountains key to securing its future, it leads me to wonder whether the ski industry actually wants to take action on climate change.

Alastair McLeod: This is a tricky one. There are a few things that have become obvious to [00:21:00] me over the past few years at POW. In some cases you have large corporations who will simply not engage on the topic at all. Then there are some businesses that are very aware of the issue and doing what they can to take action.

I’d say in the majority of cases though there is a culture of privately acknowledging the threat of climate change but a fear of talking about it publicly because it might hurt consumer confidence and potentially cost people money. On a personal level, I think that attitude is a mistake. It is rooted in short termism.

If you take the resorts for example, they’re a huge tourism industry that drive billions in economic activity. They’re the draw cards that bring tourism dollars to these regional areas and the smaller businesses, which means that they have a responsibility to act on the threat of climate change. That means they need to throw their weight around a lot more than they currently do.

POW is achieved a lot with very limited resources. Little money and only volunteer time is getting us into parliament to represent our community and push our politicians to do better. [00:22:00] Imagine how much more we could do with our industry leaders sitting alongside us.

Dave, like myself and many other Australians, you’re quite partial to Japanese powder. Um, I often will look through social media, um, um, And see how, you know, the public’s interacting with particular topics. And lately there’s been a lot of, Australia’s snow is too expensive for the quality of experience.

That sort of sentiment. And a lot of people who obviously love skiing and snowboarding, say things like, Just go to Japan. Just go to Canada. It’s not worth it in Australia anymore.

Dave Herring: I totally don’t agree. Um, multiple reasons, but you know, we’ve still got great terrain and great skiing and great touring in this country, and I know that, uh, when international people come over here uh, even pro skiers and they get out onto the range, they can’t [00:23:00] believe how good it is, and um, so, no, I’m a total fan of, uh, the skiing in Australia, and yeah, look, Japan’s the best.

whole new level. Um, I’ve skewed all over the world, um, and probably spent most of my youth in North America. But, uh, now I’m, I’m fully addicted to, uh, the Japan, uh, snowpack and food and beer and people. Um, but you know, still we’re jumping on an airplane and flying around the world. It’s a, it’s another part of our, uh, You know, we’re, we’re burning up energy doing that.

And, um, we’re, we’re adding to the whole problem by being international tourists. Um, it’s, I’m not suggesting it should stop, but I think we should all be really conscious of, uh, how much we do.

Alastair McLeod: Yeah. I don’t know if you’ve listened to the podcast episode with Hugh Kingston, but, um, they, they touch on that topic a little bit in the [00:24:00] episode and, um, It’s something like 2 percent of the global emissions come from aviation.

So it’s significant, but certainly not huge because when you look at things like fashion, fashion’s like 10%. So, um, you know, aviation’s a tricky one to clean up. There’s, there’s bigger, more impactful things that we can do as a, as a society. individual and as a collective, um, then not flying, although doing what you can to minimize that’s probably a good thing.

Climate change isn’t a unique problem to Australia. Obviously for us, our mountains are probably the most at risk to have a really developed ski economy because our mountains aren’t very tall and we live in a quite hot country. Um, um, But yeah, it’s a global problem. So places like Europe, Japan, North America, they’re [00:25:00] not immune to this issue.

Um, in your travels, have you seen any impacts overseas?

Dave Herring: Yeah, totally. Um, so I’ve been in Japan for a long time now and, um, traditionally, uh, January is really cold and stays cold. Um, and well into February, uh, for the last two years, for example, we’ve had, uh, serious warmings when, totally unusual, and, uh, yeah, like, creates havoc, uh, for the snowpack and, uh, unfortunately people die every time there’s a warming, and, um, so, yeah.

on Hokkaido, uh, last year we got up to five degrees or something in, in the middle of January. And I think, uh, Hakuba was over 10 degrees and, uh, yeah, a massive impact. And yeah, sure. Once again, it might be cyclic, but, [00:26:00] um, it still goes on and, you know, while, while ever we’re traveling and moving around, we’re always going to face different snowpacks everywhere we go.

Um, you know, I’m a bit of a cynic. Um, yeah. We can’t even, don’t even seem to be able to get our recycling bins right, let alone, um, change any of our, the bigger, make any of the bigger decisions and, you know, sort ourselves out in that sense. So, um, I just hope that, um, it keeps going and we get to keep enjoying it.

Alastair McLeod: Dave, you’ve been very supportive of POW for years. Tell us how you heard about Protect Our Winters and, um, the benefits.

Dave Herring: Yeah, I think, um, right from the get go when Jeremy Jones started POW, I was aware of it. Um, having spent all those years in North America. And, uh, probably at the same time that Cam Walker was doing stuff in Victoria, I’d [00:27:00] approached, uh, POW, uh, in the States.

And You know, they sent over a box of gear and we started talking about it and raising it, uh, with all our clients and putting it out in front of people whenever we could. Um, I think then there was another organization, another group of people who got behind it and we dropped off probably, but have always supported it.

And I still wear my T shirt proudly and I have POW stickers on my car and on my skis. Um, so yeah, that’s, that’s probably my journey with it.

Alastair McLeod: So in terms of supporting POW, what are the things that you do? You would like to see the people who come and do an AST 1 course with you at Alpine Access. What would you like them to pick up as like new behaviours or, or things that they, they do, um, to support POW’s mission, um, and see our mountains [00:28:00] endure for generations to come?

Dave Herring: You know, I see the role of POW as just, um, galvanizing the community. And I think, uh, what we would like to see is that our clients are supportive, um, get involved when they can and, um, you know, have a deeper understanding of the impacts of their own, uh, lives and usage of the mountains. And, um, yeah, hopefully, uh, drive change.

So, you know, my history in campaigning has not only been with POW, but, um, uh, about 15 years ago I ran a, ran an environmental group called Footprint and, uh, we were, uh, Where we actively tried to engage our community on the South Coast. And, uh, we, uh, had rallies and, uh, did human signs on the beach. Got some press, you know, got in the Herald and got, you know, got people thinking about it and I’ve got [00:29:00] invited to talk in front of, you know, the local bowls club and all those sorts of things, which I’m sure you guys do with telling the same story, the same narrative day in, day out.

Um, But, um, you know, we ran a, uh, environmental film festival, which was a really cool thing actually and something you guys could look at. You know, there’s lots of films out there about all sorts of things. But you know, what probably pulled me up at the end of the day was despite all our work and all the interest we got from the community, we still voted Tony Abbott in at the end of the day.

Um, right as well, I’m doing all this work and we went to an election. We still voted in a very conservative politician who does not believe in climate change. And that is our challenge.

Alastair McLeod: Yeah, that’s an interesting point. Um, when, when we as POW Australia, Talk to PowUS, a lot of the time they talk about how They’ve completely shifted their focus away from [00:30:00] individual level action to collective political action because ultimately that’s where you’re going to get the biggest bang for buck.

And, you know, hearing the way they’re, they’re approaching it, you know, they have multi million dollar budgets. They’re running political campaigns. They have a POW action fund to, to fund advertising on a, at a political level. Um, And POW Australia, you know, we’re nowhere near that, that level of sophistication, you know, we’ve only been doing this for a few years.

They’ve, they’ve been doing it for probably 15, 16 years at least now. Um, but it is an election year coming up next year. How would you advise the community when you think about, you know, your frustrations, uh, voting in Tony Abbott last time and that left you a little bit disillusioned?

Dave Herring: Uh, go to, go to the rallies.[00:31:00]

question the candidates, uh, find out where they stand and, uh, vote accordingly.

Alastair McLeod: So Dave, you and I, we both love the ocean and we love the mountains. There’s a lot of similarities, but also some pretty big differences between ski and surf culture. What do you have to say about that?

Dave Herring: Yeah, it’s, uh, it’s interesting how many surfers actually come up here to, uh, ski or ride these days.

It’s a, it’s a big part of. The coastal community spend time, spending time up here. So I guess, uh, the one similarity would be the, uh, the idea of localism. Um, surfers don’t like their breaks, their private breaks to be promoted in surf magazines. And there’s, uh, there’s a bit of that in the mountains as well as far as people, uh, sharing their lines and getting out there and being protective of their patch.

And I, I, I’m, that’s certainly the case [00:32:00] in business here. So I, um, I, I would like to see a more open community and a more, um, community based culture. come out of this. And, you know, that’s a good role for

Alastair McLeod: POW. I personally got quite involved with the fight for the bike campaign when that was happening.

And that was where you had foreign owned companies wanting to drill off, um, South Australia and Victoria essentially. And you know, the risks of oil spills and, You know, the risk, the environment is huge and it’s a very wild place, big swells, like especially all winter. So the surf community absolutely rallied behind that campaign and they did not want that to go ahead and they succeeded, you know, like at least for now, um, what do you think we could do to rally our Alpine communities in a similar way?

Dave Herring: I think you’re doing it. Um, but [00:33:00] it’s just, uh, it’s an early stage for you guys. It’s a journey and, um, it will come. But, uh, you know, the backcountry community is only small. There are a lot of surfers out there. And, you know, there’s a lot of activity and, and, um, social media and all the other platforms that are used.

Um, and I, I think, um, what you’re doing will work, it’s just, uh, you just gotta stick at it.

James Worsfold: It was interesting hearing Dave talk about his work in advocacy, you know, putting in all that effort to rally the community and still ending up with a Prime Minister who didn’t see climate change as a problem.

Would you say our political landscape has shifted since then?

Alastair McLeod: Yeah, absolutely. Australians have become much more attuned to the fact that climate change is impacting their lives, and over the last decade we’ve seen this reflected in our politics, but I think we still have a fair way to go. Some might say there’s no point in Australia reducing our climate pollution because we have [00:34:00] smaller impact than America or China.

China. The truth is that we emit more emissions per person than all other OECD countries. And taking into account the coal that we dig up and the gas that we ship off, we are the second largest exporter of fossil fuel emissions in the world.

James Worsfold: Yeah. Australia is a big contributor to climate change, but you know, we’re also a democracy.

So what this means is that we as Australians can have a tangible impact on tackling global climate change. At POW, we believe in the POW of collective action, combining the voices of the alpine loving community so that we are loud enough to be heard. Our mission is to unite the industry, the businesses, and the people who not only love, but rely on our mountains.

Alastair McLeod: Since the release of our report, POW has gone to Canberra to represent the alpine loving community, meeting with parliamentarians to highlight how the mountains are being affected by our changing climate. It’s an election year next year, and we need the Alpine loving community to vote with its best interests in mind.

If you want to learn more about what you can do, head to [00:35:00] protectourwinters. org. au.

James Worsfold: Alright, that’s all we have on the POWcast today. Make sure to subscribe, and Al, thanks for heading up to Jindabyne to have a yarn with Dave.

Alastair McLeod: Thanks James, it was good to be here, and stay stoked.